Ann Visser - Healthy Business - Thriving Marriage

Ann Visser

[00:00:00] Wendy (2): Hi everyone. This is Wendy from wellness and wealth. And welcome to our first weekend edition. Of our podcast. We're so excited. This was the new idea I had for season two was to have a midweek and a weekend edition because self-care, is that important? And of course it is not selfish. So if you are a business owner and you'd like to show up better for your business, remember that this is the show that helps you practice self care from the practical to the woo-hoo. Enjoy your show. 

[00:00:41] Wendy: Today is all about healthy relationships and marriage while building a business, which I think if you are even In a relationship of any sort, being an entrepreneur and having a relationship is quite the feat because there's a lot of plates in the air.

Our guest is Ann Viser. And Ann is a co-founder of For Better Forever and a certified John Maxwell coach, speaker, and trainer. For over 20 years, she's been empowering and equipping individuals and organizations to help them.

[00:01:12] Wendy (2): To step more into what God has for them by equipping them to communicate in a way that aligns with their values. She has been married to her high school sweetheart for 41 years where they farm on a beautiful Prince Edward Island. They have five married children and 11 grandchildren, which is amazing, and welcome to the show.

[00:01:34] Ann: Thank you so much, Wendy. It's a pleasure to be here with you and it's a pleasure to meet you and to be here on the Wellness and Wealth Podcast. So I really thank you for this invitation. 

[00:01:43] Wendy: You are so welcome. And I forgot to tell you I was an Ann of the Green Gables fan growing up.

 I've read every one of the books. It was my favorite, other than Judy Bloom my favorite to read. And so when I saw Prince Edward Island, I said, I've gotta look that up. That sounds really familiar. And I realized, I know that's a fictitious one that they have in the island, the actual name of the town, Avanlonia.

But I was like, Oh, I know I've heard of that before. 

[00:02:11] Ann: Yes, I call myself the other Anne . 

[00:02:13] Wendy (2): Oh, I love that. I love that. Anyway, I loved her, the character cuz she was so spunky and I was like, Oh I like that.

So I read all of her books cuz I related well with the spunk. So if you are a spunky person and have not read this series, even if you're an adult, I recommend highly to go read them. That is not why we're here today though, but so it's great to be on air with you and we're gonna get into it because I know for me, I've had my business for over 13 years.

I've been in business for myself and relationships and businesses, can be challenging when you're married and getting everybody on the same page. What do you consider a close relationship between couples? Because I think that's one of the things is like people start businesses or women start businesses at different phases of their life, right?

Some of them start when they are already in a relationship. I did, my husband was like, You wanna what you wanna. You wanna what? You have a paycheck every week, so you know, there's that phase. You have to know your husband well, or there's the phase of, you're dating, you get married, and somebody comes into the business.

And so closeness is different at different times of a relationship.. So what do you consider a close relationship between couples? 

[00:03:36] Ann: It is so different at different stages, even of a marriage without a business, and then you add business to the mix. Absolutely. So I love this question because I think a close, healthy.

Relationship is really all about a deep, rich connection in the word that, that's my goal for my marriage, is that deep, rich connection. So I believe it starts with knowing your, knowing each other. It's mutual knowing, knowing what are your heart's desires, what are your dreams and then understanding each other's past too.

Because we react a lot out of our past and what we do with that past matters. And, but then it's building a trust with each other that I trust you with my heart. and I'm able to share what I need. I don't expect you to meet all my needs, and I don't expect to have to meet all of your needs either.

But I'm certainly going to care about those needs and I'm gonna make an effort to meet some of those needs. And then it's about that growing mutual commitment for each other that we're in this together, we're a team. And I hear so many women saying, I just wanna feel like we're a team. And so it's not just about that I do that we say on a wedding day, but it's, I do.

And I will every day. I am gonna care. About you, and I'm gonna value you. I'm gonna value your thoughts, your feelings, your wants. And so then it's about two people becoming one and working together and in marriage or in a committed relationship that culminates with that beautiful union of bodies.

Of course. 

[00:05:01] Wendy (2): And that, what's interesting is I was listening to something and they were talking about this very thing that you mentioned. They said, it's easy to get into a relationship then staying in one, which I think is a whole other realm.

They were saying, the I do vows, the regular vows that we hear is very subjective of conditions, right? But staying is really staying regardless of the condition. 

[00:05:29] Ann: Yes, and I really truly believe, Wendy, with all my heart, that in the staying and going through the hard things, we get to the really good stuff and if we don't stay, we will start over again with somebody else.

And we will run into that again because the heart stuff partly comes from my stuff. And partly comes from his stuff. And we're gonna butt heads again and I'm still gonna have to deal with my stuff. Somewhere along the way, I need to face myself and deal with my own heart and whatever is going on inside of me, that is creating some of it is my stuff and whatever is creating the difficulties and the challenges.

If I stay long enough and work through that hard stuff, we can get to the other side. Now, I'm not talking about destructive marriage. A destructive marriage is soul destroying. It sucks the life out of you. I am not talking about that, but I'm talking about where there's difficulties or where there's situations where, some couples go through so many hard things.

Everybody goes through hard things, but then there's hard and then there's harder infertility really hard. A child dying really hard. Some things just really stress, like financial destruction can be really hard. A man losing his job is very hard on a man. And so some of these things can be really hard on a marriage.

And learning some skills and going within and getting support along the way can really help us through those hard things, help us understand ourselves better and help us move forward together. And we can be stronger than. We move through those hard things. 

[00:06:59] Wendy: I agree. And I do think that there's a difference between a destructive, unhealthy marriage too.

So yes we're not talking about the critical extreme cases of marriage where it's a safety issue to leave. But going through the hard stuff to get to the other side. And I feel like a novice being married compared to your 41 years, but I've been married for almost 20, and, I never thought I could have a son and I ended up getting pregnant, which is a miracle in itself.

 But going through that hard thing and having that discussion even before you're married. I think that's a lot of this is communication is, and it's a really interesting thing because the other thing that you said earlier was this idea of knowing that person is not going to meet all of your needs.

[00:07:42] Wendy (2): But still being thoughtful enough to be able to meet some of them. I think that's a really key thing in relationships, because not everybody can be anybody's, everything. I think that's some sort of maturity that marriages go through when you realize that , 

[00:07:56] Ann: I think you're right and we figure out along the way what is possible, what needs are possible to be met and what needs are not based on, our differences and personalities and one person needs more conversation.

Maybe he's not a conversationalist, so maybe she has to get some words out with someone else so that she gets that bucket filled. 

[00:08:19] Wendy: Absolutely. That's funny cuz I can't remember when my mother had me read men are from Mars and women are from Venus.

[00:08:25] Wendy (2): And I remember that saying that men like to go into a cave after work and women don't, but if you know these things, then your expectations change. When it comes to business and I see this because of what I do for a living, and this does not come from a place of judgment, but I feel like sometimes when women own businesses, they still put too much onus into asking their husbands what they can do in their business, which I have found can be very detrimental to the marriage and to the business.

 In my experience, it takes away a woman's power. But I'd love to hear your feedback on that, because I'm sure that there are many women who fall, even if it's not real, but they fall back on that. It's almost like the, Let me ask your father when you're parenting a child, it's the same thing.

[00:09:15] Ann: I have to say Wendy, I don't know of any other. Personal growth program that really stretches you then, like building a business, , honestly. And with every stage of business, I've had to think of myself in a different way and see myself in a different way. So first I was a coach, then I grew into being, okay I'm an entrepreneur, I own a business.

But then I realized, no. I'm a ceo, . I need to build this business. I'm responsible to make it happen and to lead the people that are under me. And so we have to see ourselves differently. So I hear you that a spouse that feels like she has to run to her partner for every business decision can create challenges.

Here's why I was thinking about it. So we both own a business, my husband and I was thinking about it from both perspectives. So if a decision that I make or a decision that he makes, takes time or money or energy away from our connection because it, I believe it's all about connection.

Then we talk about that and. Whether it's his business or my business, we talk about so this is gonna take time, money, and energy away from us. How are we gonna connect in a different way? For example, like he has these really busy seasons, and I do too. I pump up my business a little bit more when he's having his busy seasons, cuz he's not around anyway, so I get to spend more time on my business, which I love doing what I do. And so that doesn't impact our relationship. There are other times when he's really busy and or I'm really busy and we're taking time, I'm taking time away from our connection.

And so then we make decisions in how we're gonna connect on the weekend. So we're gonna block off this. And we're gonna spend some time together. I love day dates. I love to get outside. I love to walk outside. And so we're gonna take some time and we're gonna get alone and we're gonna have some conversation.

And so I think it's good to think about how do we continue to nurture connection regardless of the decisions that we're making so that the decisions work for both of us as we continue to both build our businesses. I think it's really respectful to keep each other in the know of the business and what's happening.

I know the old way was everything's secret, and particularly if it was a man, you don't tell her how you're building your business, and she doesn't have any input into the business. That doesn't happen. That doesn't happen here because what he does impacts me. Now. At the same time, he's also partners with other people, and I have to be aware of that.

It's not just his business that he's building. It belongs to other people too. I really believe also that it's important to understand each other's differences when we communicate So I see those challenges as possibilities or opportunities to grow, but they also create vulnerabilities in the relationship.

So I think it's important to be able to understand where a man is coming from and where a woman is coming from in the midst of communicating. Those opportunities, challenges and possibilities. And so according to Dr. Steven STAs and Pat Love, this is fascinating, Wendy, They say that men live on the edge of shame and women live on the edge of fear of being alone.

So It's not about shame from his past. It's about shame from a failing at work. The shame of not being able to communicate what it is that he really needs or what it is that he really wants, or the shame of failing to be able to fix something. Men love to fix. They get a great shot of testosterone.

 Or the FA like feeling like they're failing to really being able to. I just wanna help her. For women, it's about the fear of being alone. So feeling like she's alone in bed, feeling like she's alone in caring for the children, or that she's the one that does all the thinking. I'm alone in this marriage.

I hear so many women say, I wanna be a team. I wanna feel like we're, I'm a part of a team. I don't wanna be alone. And When we're on the edge of that fear, and for men's shame, it doesn't take much to push us over that edge. Now, according to Dr. John Gottman, he talks about the four horsemen, and when he talks about that, he said Women tend to be more critical and contempt contemptuous.

Now I see that. I see that in the men and women that I work with, women tend to be more critical and more contemptuous that can set a man over the edge. Like for instance, I used to be hyper sensitive about my husband's driving and would be saying, You're driving too fast. You're just going too fast, slow.

And he received that as criticism and immediately he would either speed up, which did not help my fear , or he would ignore me, which also is pulling away and creating distance, which does not help my fear either the day that I said to him, I don't feel safe with you in the car when we're driving this fast on icy roads.

He immediately slowed down and I looked at him like, This is not the way we do this conversation. What just happened here? , because he changed the dance, he changed the steps in the dance, but because I communicated differently with him in what I needed and how I was feeling, he heard me that day and that didn't set him over the edge of shame.

He heard me. He actually stepped into what I was feeling with compassion. And he immediately responded in such a better way. And so that's what we can do for each other. When we understand that shame, fear dynamic, it tends to trigger us into disagreements and arguments. So if he pulls away from me, I immediately move into that fear.

It's fascinating, Wendy. I tell my couples, when you're watching tv, look for that fear, shame dynamic. We do not understand that shame I have. Studied this so long and I still look at my husband and say, was that shame right there? Is that what he experienced right there? Because it's not on our radar.

Why would a man feel shame when we would try to help him? You can't make that call today. You have to make it Thursday. No, he feels inadequate. . , and so understanding this dynamic can help a woman and a man to communicate more effectively, to help bring about that compassionate conversation into their communication.

And so I think it can truly help a woman and a man to have those business conversations in a better way so they can make better decisions. Sometimes together, sometimes separately. It depends on how much that investment of time, money, and energy is, I believe. 

[00:16:02] Wendy: I like that what you're talking about, the fear versus the shame So my, husband years ago was a recruiter and he used to call people steady Eddies. My husband is one of those steady eddies he likes his job. We could not be more opposite.

I'm like, I can't ever see me going back. It ain't happening. As female entrepreneurs, if you don't have a husband who has the same drive to go out and do their own thing.

If there is any threat, and that's what you're talking about. I think that is something cultural and I think instinctual. The reason why I think he's is I need to provide, this is how I know how to do this. This is how I feel comfortable doing this. And when that's threatened, I can see that.

But I think that's good to be able to notice where they're coming from a different point than where you are coming from because then that helps that communication as opposed to you just being on opposite ends of one living and this is the only way and the other person living, and this is the only way too and.

When you start to notice like, Oh what is this? Like for my husband, if not being able to provide would be a big deal, like a huge deal. That's just who he is. And for me, I'm more like, okay, my, my onus is, my business is important, my family's important.

It makes total sense though. When you look at relationships in a dynamic is yes, you want to be able to communicate with them, but you also want to have your own independence. And when I talk to some of my girlfriends they're always amazed by my husband's, because

he's gone a lot. He's actually on his way home from he was in Washington state and driving home right now from across the country. And there's those times where you need to know that you're comfortable and you can communicate away from each other and together. That's why we work, cuz we can do together and independent and still know that nothing is gonna fall apart when we're like that.

[00:17:55] Wendy (2): And I think Sometimes what happens is that women or and men feel like if they're not a mesh then it's not healthy or not the norm. 

[00:18:04] Ann: Yeah. And every marriage has to figure out how much space their marriage can handle before they come together again.

And every marriage is a little bit different. Some people can work together all the time and it works great and it works for them and they spend a lot of time together. And other people, they like their truckers and they're gone for long periods of time or, but they can make it work too. Every couple decides, especially in the first several years, how much space works for them and how much closeness they need in order to feel that connection and part of that comes from that commitment that they make, that they know that, hey, we're in this together, whether we're together or not, we're still together, and that brings a great deal of security to the relationship.

And so when couples are figuring that out, it's important to. I think give us the freedom as couples to understand together. We work it out together. We, we flesh it out together. This is too much space for me. I need more connection. Or this is too much aloneness for me. I need to be together a little bit more and then figure it out.

How to make it work. This is one of the reasons why I guard our weekends. I do not take too much on, on the weekends because we're busy through the week. We're busy and the. Week nights. And so I guard at least one day where we can have some time together. And even with our kids, I, we need to have some time, just the two of us to reconnect and just to catch up on each 

[00:19:31] Wendy: other's week.

Yeah I agree that, when my husband is in town we have our time. I think that's a really key thing. I didn't understand until actually years into my marriage how important date nights because you need that time together.

So for new female entrepreneurs, I wanna know this is because I remember when I first started my business, God loved my husband. He'd come home and say I don't understand why the wash isn't done and I was like, Okay, just because I'm working from home doesn't mean I'm not working.

[00:19:58] Wendy (2): And he would say you don't have a paycheck every Friday. So we had some transition period for sure. I will say this too. It is just as hard to not go run to do those things when you have, when you're supposed to be working. 

[00:20:12] Ann: Especially when there's something you don't wanna do. Wendy . 

[00:20:15] Wendy (2): Exactly. Especially when, it comes to marketing. Usually they're like, Oh, I've got everything better to do than market my business. But how do you teach your husband, but it could be also to teach your kids your, like the whole family dynamic changes when somebody opens a business and teaching them what that space looks like is an interesting time. As I recall, we got there, but it was an interesting time.

[00:20:40] Ann: I'm only laughing Wendy cuz my, I've been working in the field with people for 20 years, over 20 years. But I, our business is only five years old. I believe it's five years old. And so this transition was a challenge for my adult kids more than my husband actually.

Mom, you're just not available. And mom, can you babysit? And mom, can we go out for coffee and mom? And so yes, if we plan ahead, we can do all of those things, but we do need to plan ahead. And I just asked a young couple today, What did you learn about yourselves since our last coaching session?

And they said to me, communication is key. They both e. Key . And I think that, we could all learn a lot from this young couple because I think it truly is key to be able to communicate. First of all, we call it the three C's of Pivotal conversations. And Pivotal conversations are not the great big they could be the great big conversations, but there's the everyday conversations that we need to have.

Cause a little shift in the relationship or so for instance, number one I say we need to check those emotions. So when they come at me with mom, can you babysit? Or a hubby comes at me with, I need you to do this for me. And what am I feeling? I need to check those emotions and what is troubling me here if I'm upset with this and what is it that I really really want?

I think a lot of women don't exactly go inside to understand what's really happening on the inside. And instead we get triggered and react instead of responding to the person when they ask us those questions because we are shifting. And so that creates more communication is needed to say this is what I'm doing.

This is where I am. This is how I'm feeling about this, and this is what I really want. And so then number two is to be able to communicate that really clearly, to deliver those expectations. in a tone that's respectful, because if it's not respectful, you know those first few seconds of that conversation.

Determine the outcome. That's Dr. John Gottman's research pivotal research in couple connection. And so those first few seconds that we deliver that expectation are really important to the outcome of that conversation. And if I am coming with a lot of angst myself, if I haven't checked those emotions, I'm gonna be anxious, I'm gonna be upset.

And so I need to check those emotions first, then I can communicate with clarity and calmness. And then I say we need to push the mute button. I have to say that to myself, Wendy, push the mute button. Don't talk. Don't talk. Listen , and then ask questions to understand what are, what's my partner feeling?

What's really going on in them? What are they thinking? What is it that they want? Then we can come up with those we solutions that we need to come up with in order to make the business and the marriage work together. Cause what is a business if we lose our marriage? I love my business. I love the people I work with.

It's so important to me. It's such a part of my purpose and who I am, but if I lose my marriage over my business, honestly, I don't wanna say it's nothing cuz I'm impacting people, but boy, it makes me think twice. So then we need to come up with those we solutions, to set out clear expectations.

For instance, I'm on this podcast, I let 'em know I'm on a podcast. I'm gonna be about an hour. You can't vacuum the floors. That's not a problem here, . You can't play your game at a level three. That's not a problem here either. But you can't come busting through the door. That might be the problem.

until I'm finished. I'm gonna be an hour when I'm finished, I'll let you know. Does that work for you? It's okay to ask for an agreement on that. Make sure they've heard you right. It's that drive through listening to make sure that they are, we're on the same page and we've, I've they hear what the words that I've spoken.

Yeah, and I think this is critical, this ability to be able to communicate those expectations clearly and calmly in a way that can be heard. We want them to land in a soft place as soft as possible so that they can truly hear what is being said. This is something that I've really noticed, Wendy, that whatever is on the inside of the marriage.

Before you even started a business, those relational habits that we have, that we've already set up, we set those up in the first several years of marriage. When we're making, when we're creating a business there, we get squeezed. Because we get pressure from outside. We get pressure from inside, we've got bills to pay.

We have conflict to deal with within the business. And maybe people are jumping to conclusions or maybe people are talking over each other. In these are the relational habits that we have, those are the relational habits that continue and when the business and the marriage gets under pressure those habits.

And so whatever's on the inside of that marriage that when it gets squeezed, that's what comes out. 

[00:25:44] Wendy: I 150% agree. I am a key believer in any relationship both parties are gonna come out the way that they really are. To that point

when I started in social media, there was such negativity about it and there can be now too. Because people do this and people do this. And I was like, people were doing this before social media. We just know about it now. We act like this has done something to us.

And it physically hasn't. It has just put eyes on who we are in some cases, right? And so that's the same thing. I can totally see that. Where if there are little communication problems in the marriage prior to the business, you're gonna know. As soon as that business starts. 

[00:26:31] Ann: That's exactly right.

And so I think it's important, I really see those problems though, as opportunity. I know my clients don't like to hear that, but any disagreement that my husband and I have, it's an opportunity. , an opportunity to go inside me and it's an opportunity to go inside. because if we're disagreeing about it, there's a reason why.

And it's likely not the surface thing that we're disagreeing about. There's something underneath that's really important that needs to be expressed. That needs to be heard. And if it's not really important to one person, we don't need to be fighting about it , right? Sometimes I'll say, know, on a scale of one to 10, how important is this to you?

And he'll say, Zero. And I'll say, Okay, we don't need to fight about this . 

[00:27:14] Wendy (2): That's actually a good leadway into this question when you're in business, right and it starts to be that potential argument specifically about your business and they don't like the decision you made. How do you walk away and not have the other person feel unheard? And Not turn it into the argument that it could be by responding differently to leave it in more of a positive note as opposed to it being an explosive battle. 

[00:27:42] Ann: So if we feel that it's gonna be a potential argument, then it's either because we've discussed it before and it's already been an argument, so it's a bit of a hot button issue.

So let's say we're spending too much money on the business, it's a hot button issue. Or maybe it's because we're assuming that it's going to be an argument. I've done that too, Wendy. I've done both

So there's those two different kind of scenarios. So if it's a hot button issue, The first of those three Cs of our Pivotal conversation framework is so incredibly valuable to understand our inner world and before we actually move further into a conversation, because it can help you understand why this is really important to you.

I really believe that it's important to have a pulse on your inner world. I need. To know why I'm upset, why I'm anxious, like why is this hard for me to walk away from? Am I being a right fighter here? Does do I have to be right here? Am I being a control freak here or I really think it's important to stay current with both my emotions and my thoughts, cuz not all the thoughts that we think are helpful.

And there's a lot of them in a day. And so I like to catch those thoughts and I catch them by journaling and that's our first see, is to check those emotions, to see where they're going and to check those thoughts. It's really easier to walk away from a potential argument when I know what's going on inside of me and I can have this long range view because our marriage has a commitment with a long range view.

So it's okay for me to walk away today because we're gonna circle around. Later when you're feeling better or we're gonna circle around to this later when I'm feeling better. So number two though, I think it's important to keep in mind the goal of marriage, which we said was connection. So is this a good time to talk?

I have tried to talk to my husband when he is rushing out the door for an appointment. That is not a good time to have a good conversation. He needs to get away. , or I've tried to have a conversation with him when he's trying to do the books, Not a good time. He's my bookkeeper, by the way, so he knows what's going on in the books, Or when somebody is hungry or when somebody's really tired, they're not good times to talk.

So then it's good. It's okay to say I need to talk to myself and say, We're gonna circle back later. So it doesn't mean it's the end. So I think it's good to have a long term view of those conversations and then if I'm feeling anxious, I need, I have a whole toolbox full of tools that I can pull from.

If I'm feeling anxious, I love to get outside. That just feeds my soul. I love to walk. That helps burn off some unnecessary energy and it, and that helps me to breathe deeply. Those are all great things to calm anxiety. It helps me to feel grateful when I see the beauty outside here in Prince or Rhode Island, Wendy, I just wanna thank God for where I live.

It's so pretty and that makes me feel grateful and that gratitude calms me. So do something physical, have coffee with a friend. Pull out your toolbox and manage that anxiety so you can circle back when you're feeling better. So we talked about the hot bus button issue, but let's talk about assuming that we're having that, that it's gonna be an argument cuz maybe it's not.

So maybe I'm mind reading, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions about what he's thinking and about how he's gonna react and respond, and perhaps I'm completely off the mark and he's not even thinking about that. And so I truly believe that mind reading is really disrespectful and that when I make assumptions about him and I don't give him a voice.

It's just so incredibly disrespectful to him and to our marriage too. Cuz I need his voice in my life. His voice is good for me. You know all the things that he's strong and I'm not. And he would tell you the things I'm strong in, he's not strong in. And so we're good together. And I need him and I need not to mind read so that I can hear his voice, take it into consideration and work with it and we can work together.

It's really about that teamwork and working together. And I truly believe it's important to have that mindset, that conflict is the doorway to opportunity, to intimacy. So when we have that conflict, I see into me, But I see into you too, and I get to know more about your real heart.

And I believe that never stops after 41 years of marriage. We've just come through a couple years of covid. I've learned more about him. And so that knowing never stops. And so that being able to see into each other, so not to be afraid of conflict and kinda to embrace it a little more like and to embrace it in the sense that I'm gonna get to know more about you and you're gonna get to know more about.

[00:32:36] Wendy (2): Yeah. I love that. So one of the things that you said, after Covid I realized that my husband and I have always gotten along, but we actually got along the best because like I said he works away a lot and we had a long time of being together during that time and we get along really well. But I think it's because we have worked so hard. For so many years, by the time Covid hit I didn't have this Oh my gosh, how are we going to cohabitate like this?

It was okay and part of that is, we know when we need to be and because we knew when we needed to like, Be in separate rooms and not separated, but be able to have our own time without feeling the need to over control what the other person was doing. And I think that's so key.

And I think that's so key when you're talking about the conversations is learning those things. Trust me. It was a lot of, and especially in the beginning of our marriage of what do you mean? What do you mean you're not gonna go with me to this thing? Like, why am I married if you're not? Oh, but we had those conversations too, and then I was like, He doesn't wanna go Stop forcing him.

You can do this elsewhere. And he likes other things and it's okay. And we sometimes we like the same things and that's okay too. And it makes such a difference right when you stop trying to put yourself on the other person in a way that doesn't serve them, and vice versa, because then you can see where you can connect as opposed to trying to force them to connect in ways that doesn't work for them.

[00:34:06] Ann: You just talked about what is on the inside gets squeezed out, all that good work that you did and those conversations, arguments or difficulties or challenges that you faced, they made you better together. And when you were squeezed in Covid, that's what came out. 

[00:34:20] Wendy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So it has been wonderful to have you on the show.

How do people get in touch with you? I know you have an offer for them, so I would love to hear about it now. 

[00:34:31] Ann: Yes, I do. I have a free gift. It's called Discover the Seven Secrets to Communicate and Connect Better in a way that Brings You closer in your marriage. And we'll put that link.

It's for better forever.com forward slash seven secrets and love to gift your audience with that. And they can get ahold of me at ann@forbetterforever.com. And that's my email address. And also, we have a website, www.forbetterforever.com for, and that is the numerical number four by the way as well. And we're also on Facebook.

You can look me up on Ann Visser and then you can get into our business page for better ever. 

[00:35:12] Wendy: Thank you so much. I think this was a great conversation so thank you so much, Ann, for being with us today. 

[00:35:20] Ann: Thank you Wendy for the opportunity to be here on the Wellness and Wealth Podcast. I love what you're doing with women here supporting women and giving them amazing solutions to, to work in their, on their mental health and their physical and spiritual and relational too.

I love that. So thank you for the work you're. 

[00:35:38] Wendy (2): Thank you and for my audience. We'll see you at the next podcast. Have blessed days until then.