The Intricate Dance of Grief and Healing during the Holidays with Dr. Ebony Green

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Welcome back to Wellness and Wealth, your podcast for working women seeking balance, success and financial freedom.

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I'm your host, wendy Manganiello.

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After a hiatus, I'm excited to kick off season six just in time for the holiday season.

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We're starting with a powerful episode that's as relevant today as when it was first recorded.

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Our guest, ebony Green, joins us to discuss a topic that touches us all Grief.

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As we approach the holidays, a time that can stir up complex emotions, this conversation offers timeless wisdom on navigating loss and the importance of self-care.

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Whether you're dealing with personal grief or supporting others, this episode provides valuable insights to help you through the season and beyond.

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Remember, taking care of yourself is not just a luxury, it's essential.

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So let's dive in and explore how we can honor our feelings, support one another and find moments of peace during challenging times.

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Hi everyone, it's Wendy Manganero, and this is another episode of Wellness and Wealth.

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We're here with Dr Ebony Green.

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I'll read her bio and then we'll get right into it.

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Dr Ebony Green is a registered nurse and family caregiver.

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She holds a PhD in human services with a specialization in healthcare administration.

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Dr Green has an extensive experience focusing on caregivers' health and wellness, with an emphasis on caregiver stress, burnout and related family conflicts.

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She has contributed to publications and given presentations that focus on training, assessing and supporting caregivers.

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Dr Green also is a published author and has written three books focusing on family caregiving at the heart of the matter, caregiving in the new millennium and reflections from their soul.

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Welcome to the show, ebony.

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Thank you, wendy.

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I'm looking forward to this conversation a few years after post-COVID, where I feel like the world went through a massive amount of grief.

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No much loss during that time.

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So, as the world continues to grieve, I'd love to know from you what does grief mean to you?

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What does that look like?

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What do you talk about grief?

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When I think about grief, we're maybe considering losing someone that you love.

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I found an excellent quote and it said that grief is the price that we pay for love.

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So if you have a job that you love or a family member that you love or an activity that brings you life, I think losing the opportunity to participate in that activity or the job that was part of your identity or the loved one that you really had a great human connection with, that is what I would relate to as grief.

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Wow, what a powerful statement.

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And to me when I hear that I could see where somebody would go through grief and go, yeah, I don't want to love again, or I don't want to try it again.

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And I guess that's the trauma side of what happens as a result of grief, because it's usually if it's something that we don't care about, it doesn't bother us, but if it's something that we deeply care about, it could upheaval how we think about things.

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Yes, and I think that you don't always know right, you don't always know ahead of time how you're going to respond to that shift or loss.

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So maybe you really loved the job that you had and that was part of your identity, and now you've moved on to something else.

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Because of choice, you've decided I want to move on.

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Because of choice, you've decided I want to move on.

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And then later you start to have feelings of sadness and you're trying to figure out where is this emotion coming from.

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And so it's not always apparent right away that what you're experiencing is grief and that grief is related to something specific.

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And I had heard, and I don't know how you feel about this, but we grieve also when it doesn't work out the way that we think it's going to.

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We can grieve, for example, what we thought the relationship was yes, I've definitely heard that you grieve the loss of what you thought would be your future or that would be a person being a part of your life.

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So say, for example, you have a family member and their spouse or parent, and you have things that you in your mind as you're accomplishing things or maybe starting a family, you have an idea in your mind of what that's going to look like, with all of the people that you love being a part of that, and so when something changes due to health or even family conflicts, you may end up then grieving the loss of what you felt that relationship was and then all of the things that you thought you were going to be able to do together in the future.

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You grieve those things too.

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Yeah, and I don't know if we live in a society that realize is how much grief really affects our everyday life.

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Because of all these reasons whether it's expectations or loss, we live thinking I shouldn't feel that way, especially when it comes to greed, like you could almost feel like you're being ridiculous because you're making too much of it like you're being ridiculous because you're making too much of it.

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I think that we're in a society where doing is the success and sometimes that comes at a price to being, and so if you're not having an opportunity to reflect because you're keeping your schedule busy and a lot of us women who are entrepreneurs we are notorious for that we're type A personalities there's a blank spot in the calendar, we're looking to fill it, and sometimes the filling in the calendar is simply saying in the calendar is simply saying this hour is going to be some downtime instead of actually scheduling another meeting or what have you, because without that you don't have time to reflect.

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And then when you do, all of the sudden, acknowledge and recognize your grief, I think that can end up being very complicated, and what I mean by that is that individuals will suddenly hit a brick wall, rather than being able to identify what's causing the grief and then addressing that one or two individual things that are contributing to your sadness and then incorporating those things into your life.

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If it's all compounded, like what happened to a lot of us over COVID, then you don't have the opportunity to separate things out and figure out what the bottom line is, so we end up hitting a brick wall yeah, I always talk about this is that?

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but the other issue is that when we're in it, we don't even see that we're doing that until the brick wall is hit always a conscious decision that we're ignoring this.

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And for my own example, after my dad had died, I had taken partial family leave and I was driving back and forth eight hours to take care of them three months, a week later or a couple days later, which again I'd driven back and forth eight hours to take care of them three times a week later or a couple days later, which again I'd driven back and forth.

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I went back to work two days later and I'll never forget my boss at the time going Wendy, what are you doing back at work already?

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And I was like I've missed too much time.

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But after I'd gone back to work, I really thought that I didn't realize that I was completely hiding from my grief.

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And six months later, when I finally stopped because of other reasons, it hit me like macture.

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Yes, that has been my experience too, that oftentimes it's like when you do finally have an opportunity to sit and it's usually something else complicated that you're trying to address you have that time to sit for a minute and not being in that doing phase of things and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so sad and what is it that's causing me to feel this way?

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One of the things I did a few years ago was I did a loss timeline.

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Was I did a loss timeline and I just made a timeline of the significant people in my life and when they passed away.

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And then I was able to look at that so that then when I'm feeling sad that, especially like holidays right now, I've had several very close who have passed away during this time holidays are always hard anyway and then when you've had a loss, but then you put in the fact that this is the time when the anniversary of that person's passing you can think about okay, this is why I'm really sad right now.

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It's because this is the time frame where my aunt Cynthia died and then we shared a same birthday and then my other aunt passed away right in between different years but was able to help me conceptualize and actually seeing why there were certain periods in the year where I have more sadness.

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It doesn't mean that I'm not able to experience happiness, but it does mean that when I do feel like, okay, that's enough for today and I need to maybe take a nap or a hot bath or go for a walk, do some Pilates, that I can make that connection in my head that this is why I'm feeling this way and these are some coping strategies that I can use to work through that and also accept that this is why I'm feeling sadder.

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Grief is the price we pay for love.

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I'm really glad that you said that, because that's a interesting thing.

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I actually was talking to my son the other day.

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He's had quite a few losses since he was little my father, then he lost an uncle.

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Now he's lost another uncle and I have an older stepson who has not Same losses but the relationships were different, so it has affected both of them differently, but my youngest son definitely.

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You know, when you look at these losses it's like there is a difference between an expected loss because somebody's sick that's going to happen, to these sudden losses where you don't get that feeling of staying by and you don't understand why you're so angry.

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But a lot of that is because of that.

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You know, how do you balance that when you can look at a timeline and go, oh, I didn't get to say goodbye or it didn't go as planned, or back to what we were talking about.

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For those people who are going through that because I think in and I was trying to explain to him most of my losses have been because I knew there's.

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My brother-in-law was not one of them, but it's like the importance of saying what you mean, what you're saying when they're alive, because we don't know, we just don't know, and for those who suffer from losses in that timeline and then didn't get to reconcile that relationship, does grief look different to them than somebody who has prepped and gone through the process of knowing somebody's going to leave?

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I think it can, and I also think that it is dependent on, like you were mentioning, like the closeness of the relationship, definitely their position or station in the family.

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So if you're talking about a parent, an uncle, who's very important to your son, for my mom, my Aunt Linda, she had leukemia that went into remission, leukemia that went into remission, and then a few years later she ended up getting ovarian cancer, and so there was still time to process the fact that she was nearing the end of life and all of those things.

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But having grown up in a very religious family and thinking that if you're a good person, you're going to have a good death, that you're not going to be scared, and things like that my mom visiting her sister who they're only two years apart, been best friends their whole life and having to see her in such distress and she ended up having complicated spiritual grief, such distress and she ended up having complicated spiritual grief.

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So I think it really depends on, again, those relationships.

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Does it shake your foundation or your core?

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And if it's a spiritual grief or related to religious beliefs, that can be one of the more disrupting things I have ever seen, because then you feel like I am not supposed to be questioning that things are all part of God's plan.

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But then also I'm angry because why did it have to be so painful and horrible for such a good person?

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Painful and horrible for such a good person?

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And I think that it just really depends on, again, those things that we're talking about and then your ability to address it and accept the help and get the help, and what I mean by that is going and seeing a counselor to work through your feelings, and that might end up being something that's more long-term than what you think it's going to be, and that's okay too.

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I'm glad you brought that up is because, based on our belief systems of how we were raised, really does make a difference on how you grieve, whether it's religious or spiritual.

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And I could completely see that based on my belief systems that I was raised with, and it was questionable to me how my dad died and how things ended up was part of my grief process, because he just didn't change, he just didn't.

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I finally had accepted him for who he was prior, for five years prior to him dying, but it still shook that core belief system and so I could see that where, if you are brought up with a core belief system, whether it's religious or not, whatever, that core belief system, and then you see, be nice girls, nice ladies, then you're not really supposed to be angry and by all means you don't get angry with the higher power.

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And you may have people who are in your church, or what have you, who are asking.

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I remember my Aunt Cynthia's passing at the memorial service, the pastor asking my cousin and I basically did she know the Lord is what he said and I was shaken up by that because yes, she did, but what if she didn't?

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Right Then that's like putting that all on.

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Where is she going?

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I was angry about that for a little while.

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It took me a while to understand too that, as with any relationship and this is just my personal belief that we can have periods of anger and questioning, that's part of the growth on your spiritual journey.

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That might not be true for every person, but the guilt that can be associated with that questioning can be one of the more devastating things to try to walk through.

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Yeah, I could not agree more and I really do understand that, based on how I was raised religiously and the years of trying to pull that back to be okay with what I believe in today, and that it doesn't always have to match exactly.

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But that time of year is working through and because of that I don't see things as rigidly as I used to and I'm so grateful that I don't.

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But I know that's not where everybody is and giving them the opportunity to either get there or not it's really based on their relationship with their higher power.

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So, as I hear you're talking one of my questions, because it sounds like you've dealt with grief Now as somebody who helped others deal with it, why does that become important to you to help others process this?

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Because it can really disrupt your life.

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Grief is a great disruptor and the things that I think about are your career.

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So there have been times where I've been working as a nurse and maybe I've cared for someone, where I've been working as a nurse and maybe I've cared for someone and I feel really good at the end of being there and holding that person's hand, of attending the service for the individual.

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I've also worked where I've been a nurse and my coworker was in a motorcycle accident and I couldn't go back to that particular job because we were so close and it was so devastating and unexpected.

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And then, as I've gotten more seasoned and had personal experiences and watched other folks when they've gone through their grief, it really does disrupt your life.

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The other part that you might think about or not readily is that if you have someone who's a matriarch or patriarch of the family and that person is now gone, it disrupts the family structure and so you may not be getting together during certain holidays or all the get togethers that you just would have on weekends or what have you, because that person was the connector in the family and now we're really all just maybe going to our own corners and quietly grieving, but then we're now grieving the loss of what used to be as far as that family connection.

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Some people are angry and their anger is off-putting to the other family members, and so you don't know how to necessarily deal with that person, and so now you're creating separate spaces there.

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So grief can really disrupt families.

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It can really disrupt your life and your, your career.

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There are things, I think, that losses teach you.

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Then you have an opportunity to grow, once you've had an opportunity to really acknowledge that you're sad, and sometimes I just have to say I'm really sad.

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Something you said a little earlier in the conversation hit home with me, because you think about losing people that you love and you think about the time that you take off, work to adjust not that first few days of bereavement, that you feel like you're not real yet, and so probably by the time it's hitting you as something that's disrupting or that you're feeling sad or angry or what have you, it is probably months later.

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And so I think the whole way that we look at and think about bereavement and grief, we need to consider that that no one is going to work through their sadness in these couple of days of the planning of a memorial or funeral service and having those couple of down days.

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And I noticed this as a society when somebody dies, everybody's there for three days and then everybody disappears back into their own life.

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I always find that so interesting.

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I don't think people realize that once, for three days I was like I can't deal with it.

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I guess I can't even think straight, never mind people.

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And then when you realize that you kind of need people and I think that we do this as a society, that's when everybody's gone back to their normal life.

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Yeah, exactly, and imagine over COVID, where people didn't even have the opportunity to come together in a lot of ways, there were several people who were cousins, who died from different things during the pandemic, and you may not have been physically close, but you're on Facebook and you're talking to each other in that way and then you're also isolated because we couldn't do a lot of the traveling and such.

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And yeah, I think the whole time through the pandemic my thought process was the world is gravy and then we're isolated.

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When my dad passed away, we had his memorial service for January.

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Many of the family members from across the country were coming to that, and the weekend of his memorial service my stepmom lived in West Virginia.

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There was a huge snowstorm and so she was thinking on postponing the memorial service because of the snowstorm, and so she was thinking on postponing the memorial service because of the snowstorm, and then her mom, who was in her 90s, passed away the middle of the night, two days before my dance.

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I don't know how she's doing life right now.

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And then everybody grieves different.

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So when I was just like completely falling apart because my dad is like my best friend she's oh, he was a Marine.

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We're tough and I'm like I am not that tough and when this all registers I don't know if you're going to be as tough as you think you are.

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And so just trying to keep that communication and that door open to make sure that she's getting the support and that she doesn't feel like everybody has moved on because everybody hasn't moved on.

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I completely agree.

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So for female entrepreneurs, what are the warning signs?

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That they're going through complicated grief and may not know it.

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Obviously there's a loss.

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What are those signs that they may not even be realizing is attributed to?

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grief person.

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Now you're having difficulty even doing a to-do list.

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You may be overbooking your schedule.

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A lot of folks will do that to keep moving and you're going to crash.

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That's just what it is.

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You're crying without really being able to associate your tears or your sadness with something specific.

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That might be a good time for you to sit down and write a loss timeline.

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It doesn't have to be just losses of people that you love, but it could be situations, things that you thought would be things that you have attributed to your identity.

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When we think about complicated grief, it is not just our normal sadness.

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It's more like that throbbing deep pain.

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I'll say when I recognized that I was really in deep pain about my mother-in-law because I did all the things I just told you.

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I booked my schedule and all those kinds of things, and then my husband and I actually went for couples massage so you're supposed to be all relaxed and everything, and I was, and then it just hit me laying there with my eyes closed and being fully relaxed and I cried for like, maybe from that time until for the next three or four days.

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It was like being in like when you scoop sand, and so you're scooping the sand and then it's still filling in.

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It was just like a throbbing.

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I just can't even figure out what my next step is going to be, and I think that both our hopes are that, through this conversation, that others will know that they're not alone in that, that, if they do feel that way, to definitely reach out for help.

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If you start feeling some of the things that you and I have been talking about, that it's okay to go ahead and proactively seek out someone to talk to, whether that be a counselor or a therapist or your doctor or whomever.

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Yeah, and that brings me to my final question.

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If somebody is realizing they're like an entrepreneur going oh my gosh yes, I can relate with that.

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Essentially.

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What can they do as a first step?

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Yeah, First of all, it is realizing, and it doesn't have to be oh, I feel like I'm grieving.

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And it doesn't have to be oh, I feel like I'm grieving.

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Maybe you're having panic attacks all of a sudden, or you're getting in your car and you usually like to drive and you are freaking out when you're driving.

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So it might not be the th my physician which I did and those visits are so fast and I felt like every time I was going in to talk to him, I was having to explain to him what was actually going on in my life.

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There was not a continuity of, oh, yeah, this person, this is what's going on with this person, and so we could continue the conversation.

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I found it most helpful to reach out and find a therapist.

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Now, the other thing is that can be hard because there are so few and so many of us are grieving and so it might be that you're on a list to actually see someone.

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But, yes, definitely reaching out for help, either to your doctor, getting that referral for a therapist, finding a counselor or therapist.

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Before I actually had a full therapist, I had a counselor and I was working through more of my anxiety type thing, and then, when the grief part was piled on top of that.

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I found it most beneficial that I have a therapist, and thank God I do, because I've had more another significant loss and if I didn't have that foundation I probably wouldn't be functioning as well as I am right now.

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Right, and I think it's also about who it is.

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If it's a parent, we expect grief.

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If it's a child, forget it.

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You totally expect grief.

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Yet, talking to some of my colleagues and friends, they feel ridiculous that they're grieving a friend to that extent, or a coach.

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They really feel like they shouldn't feel that way.

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Again to our conversation.

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Our hope is that everybody's grieving something, something, and so accepting that and then going to get the help that you need instead of acting like it's not there, will allow you to move on so that you can be more successful, so that you can really look at things.

00:28:41.998 --> 00:28:43.099
I know for myself.

00:28:43.099 --> 00:28:48.421
Anytime I've tried to act like it's not happening everything from a pet to a human.

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I end up hurting myself later because I say yes to things I don't want to, to that point of piling things up.

00:28:54.823 --> 00:28:55.766
It's just not healthy.

00:28:55.766 --> 00:28:58.977
It's just none of that sustainable, because you can't run away from your feelings.

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It's always going to show up.

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It's going to show up in some way.

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That was probably inevitable and I really wouldn't want anyone to feel guilty if that's what's happened that you haven't acknowledged or recognized and that maybe this conversation is doing that for someone that you haven't recognized it before, because we are a forward moving society and if you're an entrepreneur, you are your business and so it's just like any other investment that you're making in your business, to make that investment in yourself, to make sure your well-being is at the top of the list, because without you, your business is going to suffer exactly I can't believe we've already talked about 30 minutes, but this has been fantastic.

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I really have enjoyed this conversation with you and I do hope that it helps so many people.

00:29:55.969 --> 00:29:57.923
But I do know that you have an offer.

00:29:57.923 --> 00:30:02.142
I'd love for you to tell people what that is and then I will have the link to it in the show notes.

00:30:03.224 --> 00:30:03.787
Absolutely.

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I have a little guide.

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It's from my book Reflections from the Soul, which is on grief, and it's just a section on family dynamics, because I do find that is one of the areas where folks often don't think about how that loss can impact the family and what are some things that you as a family can do together that will help you both celebrate your loved ones losing your loved one and also continue to keep that connection with the people that are in your family and that you love, and so I hope that you enjoy the guide and that it's helpful for you and your family.

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Thank you so much for this conversation today.

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I really appreciate it.

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I just want to thank you again so much for being here, Absolutely To our listeners.

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If you did enjoy this conversation, if it was helpful, please leave us a review and otherwise subscribe for other self-care topics as we go through this next season of our life.

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In the meantime, have a beautiful day.